thumping the tub
Tub-Thumper - 1. A speaker or preacher who for emphasis thumps the pulpit; a violent or declamatory preacher or orator; a ranter. (from oed.com). This blog will be a combination of reasoned posting somedays and an occasional rant.
Thursday, March 02, 2006
IRAQ AGAIN
I have been receiving some accusatory comments. I am not trying to start anything here I just want to point out a few discrepancies...

"Antiwar protesters advocate recklessness because they hate the west."

Firstly, what is more reckless, starting a war or trying to stop one?

Secondly, I do not 'hate the west' but I believe in getting my own house in order before I start shouting at someone else to clean up theirs. One act I would consider to be 'hating the west' would be giving loans to bloodthirsty dictators with taxpayers money and then demanding that the loans be used to buy weapons from western companies. The anti-war protestors did not do this, the western governments did.

As was shown in the Scott Report (an inquiry into the UK government and companies arming Saddam) between 1984 and 1990 there was 1744 applications to sell arms and 'arms related products' to Iraq. Remember this was AFTER he gassed his own civilians. 110 of those applications were rejected and 1634 of them were approved. They knew what he was doing - they didn't care.

(Donald Rumsfeld meeting Saddam Hussein - captions in the comments!)

Then look at Saudi Arabia, our supposed friends. There tends to be a lot of internal repression there. Any plans to invade? Don't think so.

They are even proud that Algeria signed up for the 'War on Terror'(TM) when they must know that if you look up 'Internal repression' in the dictionary, Algeria is quite high up the list.

Who is supporting Fascism here? It looks like the West doesn't it?

Saying that they have removed one fascist loses its glamour when they are continually supporting other ones. The west also does not have the right under international law to do what it is doing.

I can't remember the name off hand (I can trawl through some stuff and find it if anyone insists - Chomsky quotes it direct from the government in paper in one of the lectures on his site) but an American official said after Gulf War 1 that the ideal scenario for the USA was an 'iron-fisted Iraqi junta' - just with someone who wasn't Saddam Hussein.

I have always objected to the arms industry, not just arms in the hands of people I personally don't like.

Also, the enormous expense that hits the taxpayer and the INCREASED likelihood of terrorism means that the west is harming itself in all this.

If you tell a member of your family to stop drinking because you think they are harming their health do you do it because you hate them? I don't think so.

I have previously been accused of being 'pornographic' for publishing this photo. It is only pornographic if you get a kick out of it. I am appalled by it but I post it to show the link between actions (or even inactions) and consequences. If you support the policy you accept that these things are going to happen and believe it to be 'worth it'.
I don't but some others obviously do becuase they keep supporting it and sticking up for it.

Finally, I have no romantic notions about the Iraqi resistance at all. I have went to some talks in various places done by refugees from the conflict and they all say more or less the same thing - That there is some popular resistance and some that are a nasty bunch. Nevertheless they all said that tensions will decrease once the Coalition leave. Also, they all more or less said the thing that is in the Gandhi film (I don't know if he really said it - a lot of the quotes in that film are not right) that there is no country in the world that would not prefer its own bad government over a good foreign one (or a puppet government).

UPDATE

I think this song sums it up well, you can listen to it or download it for nothing here

Operation Iraqi Liberation - David Rovics

We've got a situation and it calls for a solution

That upholds our domination of the planet

We're gonna make our case and we're gonna make it well

But if you don't like our logic you can can it

We'll use impeccable intelligence from any country in the world

As long as we all see eye to eye

And if we don't find quite what we need we know what to do

Just look into the camera and lie

(Chorus)

Cause it's Operation Iraqi Liberation

Tell me, what does that spell

Operation Iraqi Liberation

O - I - L

And we'll lie about the missiles and the nuclear research

We'll lie about uranium

We'll build military bases and smile for reporters

As we give away bubble gum

And we'll lie about bin Laden and his connections with the Saudis

And we'll lie about 9-1-1

And we'll lie about the Baathists and their connections to Al Qaeda

Because we know there's none

(Chorus)

And we'll lie about the North Koreans and we'll lie about Iran

And don't mention Israel

Keep those nuclear weapons out of this song

And it will all hold together swell

And now we'll liberate these people, we'll liberate their money

We'll liberate their soil

We'll liberate their airports,

we'll liberate their harbors

And we'll liberate their oil

posted by michael the tubthumper @ 12:58 pm  
26 Comments:
  • At 2:47 pm, Blogger a rose is a rose said…

    i don't think the photograph is pornographic at all. i think it's pornographic (well NOT pornographic, but i'm making a point) this child died the way she did (i believe she was a girl child) .

    i for one thank the goddess every day for somehow directing me to your blog. i love your writing, i love your strength, i love your activism, i love your depth (i will stop for now so you don't get a big fat head)

     
  • At 3:11 pm, Blogger Guerrillas in the Midst said…

    Egads. Some folks, evidently, have serious obstructions in the cloacus (of the reptilian sort).

    I'm pretty sure it was Friedman of the NYTimes who said that "iron-fisted" stuff. What a little moustached turdlet that guy is.

    Anyway--the next time some goof flings that sort of nonsense at you, try sending them here:

    http://www.therationalradical.com/misc/headupass.htm

     
  • At 4:39 pm, Blogger Jason H. Bowden said…

    George Orwell on pacifism:

    "Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at the writings of younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the United States.... Pacifist literature abounds with
    equivocal remarks which, if they mean anything, appear to mean that
    statesmen of the type of Hitler are preferable to those of the type of Churchill, and that violence is perhaps excusable if it is violent
    enough." (From Notes on Nationalism)

    Saddam Hussein is a p-o-s and unlike the left, I'm glad millions of people will be now able to live in a democracy. Yes, Western governments helped Hussein in the 1980s, but only because we didn't want the insane Iranian regime to successfully export its revolution. There is no reason to apologize for this.

    Unless of course, you hate the west.

     
  • At 4:56 pm, Blogger michael the tubthumper said…

    jeez

    1. I never said i was a pacifist
    2. Orwell was anyting but a right-winger. i find it odd that people so selectively quote him
    3. you appear to be suggesting that fascism with friends is ok but fascism with enemies isn't.
    4. the millions of people you refer to now HATE the west because we keep bombing them. civilians and all. at least 100,000
    5. i am trying to stop the west from doing things that leads to the situation whereby everyone hates us.
    6. you missed out any mention of sauid, algeria etc. the 'insane' iranian regime, and insane it is, is not as bad as the internal repression there has been in Saudi. why are they ok?

     
  • At 4:58 pm, Blogger michael the tubthumper said…

    also, did you forget that this whole thing was originally (officially and in the press anyway) not about regime change and democracy. it was supposed to be about disarming iraq.

     
  • At 5:03 pm, Blogger michael the tubthumper said…

    and if it is all about democracy will you condemn US involvement in the Chilean coup with Pinochet? and nicaragua? el salvador?

    the CIA operations in italy and greece after WW2 to stop the socialist winning democratically. do you condemn all these actions?

     
  • At 6:11 pm, Blogger fatrobot said…

    these things are terrible no matter if it is done the your friends or your enemies
    shitheads administrations like to make people think otherwise
    thank god there are people who see through the lies, hopefully people will choose peace before ignorance and fear

     
  • At 7:22 pm, Blogger JOS said…

    This:

    "I'm glad millions of people will be now able to live in a democracy. Yes, Western governments helped Hussein in the 1980s, but only because we didn't want the insane Iranian regime to successfully export its revolution. There is no reason to apologize for this."

    is almost as idiotic as the "antiwar protesters advocate recklessness because the hate the west" comment from the post.

    Jason, how, in your wildest of imaginations, is Iraq a democracy? And who could possibly be happy to live there after the US/UK invasion and occupation which killed tens of thousands and created the situation they are in today where several thousand have died in the last week?

    How is an illegal invasion and occupation the foundation of a "democracy?" What is a democracy in your view? That would be an interesting question for you to answer.

    Does the US have to apologize for the sanctions it laid on Iraq during the 90's that were directly responsible for the deaths of 500,000 children?

    I could go on and on, but I am assuming your only response will be that I hate the west...what an argument!

     
  • At 8:45 pm, Blogger enigma4ever said…

    GIVE"m Hell Thumper....what a turdlett....can't believe he is still here- what a pest...I guess the afterschool activities were cancelled at the Jerry Falwell Academy....

    We love you...and KNOW that you write about What matters, and that you speak the Truth...the song reminded me over at Huffington Post "No Bravery"( Matthew Blunt)- the video that goes with it is amazing....as amazing as the song here....

    Blog on Brother....Blog on...

     
  • At 10:06 pm, Anonymous Peacechick Mary said…

    One of the things the pro-war, pro-mutilation, pro-ripp off crowd likes to do is to diminish the protester. At one Peace protest, some turdster yelled, Cry Baby! I went back the next time with an enlargment similar to the photo you show and sure enough the turdster showed up and I shoved it in his face. Do everything you can and if you Jason unhappy - great work!

     
  • At 12:40 am, Blogger Keir said…

    Hey all, enough with the flaming. Jason the self-described center-rightist brings up some important issues to be addressed. For example, what unites the people who support the multiple war crimes that constitute the invasion and occupation of Iraq? There is a clear rejection of any hint at "universality" from this camp, but dealing with that, and changing the minds of those on the more moderate end of the "center-right" (!) would require locating the source of the rejection. Do these people believe that the corporate-military takeover of Iraq is derived from cultural superiority, or spiritual superiority, or is it racial superiority? Maybe it's a macho thing---"take no prisoners" (!), "no holds barred", "go for the jugular", "survival of the fittest".

    So out with it Jason, o spokesman of the center-right. Help us isolate the facets of the West we "anti-war protesters" hate. Failing that, why not consider putting your ass where your mouth is and signing on for a tour of duty?

     
  • At 12:52 am, Blogger Jason H. Bowden said…

    jos --

    Iraq is a Democracy because Iraqis rule through a system of representation involving free elections. I don't know why the left thinks a free and democratic is the worst thing in the world, but the left likes socialist tyranny, even if it be Baathi style, better than liberal democracy these days.

    The claim that 500,000 Iraqi children died as the result of the sanctions is false. We can pursue this further at your pleasure.

    michael --

    No one should apologize for stomping Castro wannabes in Latin America. The West won the Cold War, and the world is a better place as a result of it. The same applies for Communists smacked down elsewhere.

    Iran is a threat because the people in charge now want to go on the final jihad to bring the return of the 12th Imam. Their leader denies the holocaust and has promised to wipe Israel off the map. Others like Rafsanjani have made comments about how Islam can survive a nuclear war-- Allah willing, as always.

     
  • At 2:08 am, Blogger Guerrillas in the Midst said…

    Let's not forget the ongoing genocide of America's original democracies (which, not surprisingly were more effective at "representation". See Haudenosaunee).

    So "your world" might be a better place because of the US' brown-shirt stompin' but 'round these parts, cowboys and girls, we're still told Thanksgiving was a day Puritans and Injuns set aside their differences and ate punkin pie.

    Who was it that said: "People wonder what the world would be like if Hitler had won. I say: take a look around"?

    The U.S. can't even live up to its own promises here at home--how on earth are they going to establish "democracy" abroad?

    Mama, don't let your babies grow up to be cowboys...

     
  • At 2:26 am, Blogger Guerrillas in the Midst said…

    Should have read:

    "not surprisingly were [and still are] more effective at "representation". See Haudenosaunee".

    And it was Ward Churchill that said that about "look around". So there's a golden opportunity to use Churchill as a prime example of "America Hating" or "wanted 911 to happen" or any other silly thing that can be used against what was stated (call it a preemptive strike).

     
  • At 2:34 am, Blogger Fiona said…

    Jason

    Please allow me to share some observations.

    "Iraq is a Democracy because Iraqis rule through a system of representation involving free elections."

    If this is the case then why didn't the troops leave yesterday. They are still there because they have to make sure that the Iraqi political class does what we want it to do, which of course means opening up its economy to foreign takeover. The fact remains that democracy in Iraq would be an absolute disaster for the US and Britain.

     
  • At 2:48 am, Blogger That Damned Jezebel said…

    We keep revisiting the 'Democracy' rationale over and over as though selective memory is preventing us from having the same recollection of what we were told prior to the war. We keep having these arguments as though we had no history with Saddam or the Taliban or Bin laden. We keep propping ourselves up among our misdeeds with our precious moral authority that we did not earn and self ascribing does not make it an accurate reflection of who we are or what we do and WHY we do it. Its like some of these guys get a thrill over playing the 'who can reinvent reality' game.

    And when in doubt, shriek 'liberal' and throw all of the absurd notions you have on the table for us to sort out.

    Why are so many people incapable of sorting out the differences between their petty competitive hatred of 'the left' and their obligation to respond to criminality? Even dead children can't make some of these people top looking at spin and politics. Why try to reason?

    if we say OKAY ASSWIPES YOU ARE RIGHT then THEN will you get off your assbrains and react to reality?

     
  • At 7:20 am, Blogger justin barker said…

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

     
  • At 11:52 am, Blogger justin barker said…

    Calling Iraq a Democracy at this point in its history takes the very concept of democracy and stands it on its head and pisses all over it. There is no such thing as an occupied democracy. Democracy does not exist at, behind or beyond the business end of a gun.

    And, as I have pointed out once before here, your quoting Orwell is out of place since he was talking not about pacifists in general but about pacifists in countries that suffering the brunt of German aggression. Do you think he would have said the same about German pacifists?

    What do you think he would have said about Iraqi pacifists? (Probably just what you quoted him saying.)

    Perhaps Iraq is better off without Saddam perhaps not. Perhaps it is on the road to democracy, perhaps not. But let's ask ourselves, why does it matter? Why do we care? Is it out of the kindness of our hearts that we have killed women and children, destroyed cities, poisoned the land and water. Are we saving them from a fate worse than what we have provided, a fate worse than death?

     
  • At 5:36 pm, Blogger GraemeAnfinson said…

    Justin makes a good point.

    orwell really is quoted a lot by the right. kind of funny the right is so influenced by jesus, considering he was a pacifist. he said if someone strikes you turn the other cheek, not if you think someone might strike you, blow up their entire country.

     
  • At 1:21 am, Blogger Jason H. Bowden said…

    Justin--

    The allies occupied Japan and Germany for some time after WWII. They're democracies today. When the same happens in Iraq, all of you people will claim you were for it all along.

    When this happens, know it is because of the goodness of the United States and her allies, not because of the French and the terror-loving "peace" crowd.

    Hussein loyalists and militant jihadists nostalgic for the Caliphate are now waging war against the Iraqi security forces. It would be criminal to let the security forces fight them alone, especially when the leadership is asking us to stay.

    But then again, I'm talking to people who think America is the Reich and Saddam Hussein represents liberal democracy. (See 'Guerrilla' above.)

     
  • At 8:41 am, Blogger enigma4ever said…

    REAL DEMOCRACIES DON'T HAVE OCCUPIERS AND DEAD PEOPLE PILED IN THE STREET DAILY....
    OH, THAT'S RIGHT THE BROKEN CHARADE DEMOCRACIES THAT ARE FORCED UPON A REGION BY BOMBING THEM FOR "PEACE" AND "FREEDOM"....IT IS A DIFFERENT KIND OF DEMOCRACY....
    THE KIND BASED ON A LIE.

    I don't think the little girl or her grand-dad in the picture were asked if they Wanted This Democracy.

     
  • At 12:46 pm, Blogger Jim said…

    I'm not sure what produces the historical revisionist take on America and the west that the "Jasons of the world" subscribe to. Is it selective amnesia about the U.S.; our propaganda-driven educational system; chemicals in our urban water systems? Whatever the hell it is, I'm concerned that it's not isolated to some small pocket, but probably comes close to representing a healthy slice of our country, particularly the area affectionately called, "the red states."

    With the narrow spectrum of stories represented by M'stream news outlets, I'm not optimistic about our chances moving forward. I'm thankful for the blogs, alt news sites and other resources for objective information (or at least something that falls short of most of the jingoistic propaganda that masquerades as news) that exist. The challenge is getting people like Jason and others, to let go of their need for ideological cheerleading and recognize that the U.S. has a clear record of imperialist behavior and is no friend of "democracy." It doesn't take alot of work to trace that history back, either. Any library, even in the remote outbacks of rural American probably have a copy of Zinn's "A People's History of the United States." I might suggest Jason (and others who subscribe to his blinkered view of American exceptionalism) start there.

     
  • At 3:41 pm, Blogger Guerrillas in the Midst said…

    Jason--

    If you had read what I wrote, had an inkling of the past 500 years, remembered that the US is an occupier within its "own" borders, and at the very least attempted to put yourself in an Indian's shoes, you might look at the present situation slightly differently (i.e. realistically).

    First off, I never said that Hussein or pre-occupation Iraq represented a democracy. If you took the time to type "Haudenosaunee" into Google, you'd get something far from Iraq.

    Moreover, I'm talking about the genocide that's going on HERE. I'm talking about the continued dispossession and destruction of entire NATIONS within the US's own borders. Just because you might not be aware of it (i.e. in denial), doesn't mean it isn't happening (this part, dear readers, is when the word "casinos" begins to flit about in most Americans' heads).

    My point was (why this wasn't clear is sort of obvious) that how in hell can the US establish "a democracy" anywhere else when its still has yet to live up to its own obligations at home?

    So the US considerably similar to the Reich--particularly if you're on the receiving end of its Blitzkrieg and living in concentration camps (i.e. "reservations").

    So let's all dance around the issue here--it's worked so far! The very fact that the US has destroyed plenty of democracies here, and continues to attempt to destroy them with the Bureau of Indian Affairs and other nefarious means translates into the fact that the US is not friendly at all to democracies.

    And by the way, when someone is critical of the US, it doesn't mean they like Hussein. Nor does it mean that they don't like the US. Where does this simplistic thinking come from?

     
  • At 5:26 pm, Blogger SassAug said…

    If we just turned the Middle East to glass, over 90% of the world's problems would just....go away. Forget the innocnet folks..they are really harbroring the BAD ones.

    Sorry that you think 9/11 was a LIE but I lost family in that pile of ruin...and the fact that Sadaam had on his "State Run" newspaper (now there's freedom of speech for you) the day after it happend "The Judgement of God" and tape after tape on al (quida) jazeera where OBL proclaimed time and time again... pull your head out of the sand. If muslims hate the West so bad then why do they: move to our country, use the internet, use technology. Surely, these are the inventions of the GREAT SATAN and should not be touched...unless of course it furthers their own agenda..then it is OK..huh.

    Turn the Mid East to Glass, use differnt fuel, and stop illegal immigration...then over 90% of the world problems will just...go away

     
  • At 5:30 pm, Blogger SassAug said…

    "the US is an occupier within its "own" borders"

    I like that quote...didn't you know that EVERY nation is an occupier within it's own borders. The Germans are sitting on Roman Land that belonged to....

    Syria is on Babylon's land that belonged to... the Medes.

    Wars come and go hence the balance of the world goes on and on and on. Every country and nationality is GUILTY of blowing someone else away and violating other peoples...shoot, why not go back to the Vikings and the Celts...etc. etc.

    I just like what Jesus said in Matt 24...you shall hear of wars and rumors of warss...then the end shall come....get ready.

     
  • At 6:48 pm, Blogger michael the tubthumper said…

    i didn't say i thought 9/11 was a lie

    as for the rest of it...!

     
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U.S. MONETARY Cost of the War in Iraq - other people are spending too, and the human cost is much higher
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What is Tubthumping and who is doing it?

Name: michael the tubthumper
Home: Glasgow, Scotland
About Me: Tub-Thumper - 1. A speaker or preacher who for emphasis thumps the pulpit; a violent or declamatory preacher or orator; a ranter. This blog will be a combination of reasoned posting somedays and an occasional rant. 28 years old, I write and research for a couple of websites and also do my own stuff.
See my complete profile

Thumping The Tub Video

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I have made a few short movies. Here are links to free downloads for them all in the order that I made them (as far as I can remember). Please feel free to use, distribute, disagree with, shout at etc etc

  • Praise The Lord and Pass The Ammunition
  • This was a REAL song from World War 2. I was so stunned by it I had to make a movie

  • How Far Is It From Here to Nuremberg
  • This is my attempt at a video for the excellent, if worrying, David Rovics (see links) song

  • What You Like
  • I believe the word for this is "splenetic". Only 20 seconds long.

  • Imperial Measures
  • What is going on in Iraq? Some things you knew, some you didn't. A couple of bits of info are out of date now.

  • Wish You Were Here
  • Wish You Were Here is a 6 minute film about the unprecendted rate of animal extinction we are currently experiencing

  • Gorillas and us
  • I don't like creationism, neither did Douglas Adams

    Recent Thumping
    Older Thumping
    Links

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  • internet archive
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  • blairwatch
  • bushflash
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  • corporate watch
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  • noam chomsky
  • common dreams
  • counterpunch
  • cost of war
  • david rovics
  • democracy now
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  • the dossier
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  • sourcewatch
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    some of the blogs I look at
    Arse of the month

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    The inaugural 'Arse of the month' award goes to our very own Scottish First Minister Jack (Joke) McConnell. He seems to spend a lot of his time sucking up to english politicians and yet it appears they don't even know his name. Follow the link to see..

    NODOBY KNOWS ME
    It's All Gone Scottish

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    A list of some other Scottish sites and blogs most of which, if not all, are pro-independence. I don't agree with content on all of them obviously. Some are Scots at home, others abroad.

  • The Scottish Patient
  • Kim Ayres
  • Our Scotland
  • average tosser
  • 1820
  • big stick small carrot
  • J. Arthur MacNumpty
  • World of Jack McConnell
  • The Firefox Chronicles
  • Independence 1st
  • Radio Free Scotland
  • Scots and independent
  • Scottish Independence Guide
  • TCOAW
  • Small Nation
  • Inveresk Street Ingrate
  • Radical Glasgow
  • Want to Swot?

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    If you like this site and think it is time to start getting informed here are a few real favourites of mine that will help you blow away the corporate and government propaganda you are constantly bombarded with. It is added to every so often.

  • politics and the english language
  • Beyond Hope
  • the gore exception
  • your tax dollars at work
  • a cultural chernobyl
  • choose life (not trainspotting)
  • shooting an elephant
  • a war crime within a war crime...
  • the menace of liberal scholarship
  • the modern era of law
  • naming the problem
  • the four ages of sand
  • a news revolution has begun
  • come september
  • money is the cause of poverty
  • countering corporate power
  • Other Stuff

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